Lewis kept no enslaved servants, but Clark resented York's freedom
Born in slave states and intimate friends, Clark grew possessive and jealous when enslaved York escaped servility, yet Lewis never owned an enslaved servant throughout his life
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The argument · tap a timestamp to hear it
Historians from different eras projected their own times onto the same expedition
Craig Fehrman observes that Bernard DeVoto, writing in the Cold War era, saw imperial shadows everywhere in the journals, while Stephen Ambrose, writing during the Clinton presidency, emphasized efficiency and commerce with a neoliberal frame. Fehrman admits his new book will similarly bear the imprint of his own moment.
— Craig FehrmanOrdway's New Hampshire family farm was too poor to divide among brothers
Fehrman grounds Ordway's enlistment in the concrete poverty of a small farm that couldn't sustain multiple siblings, then contrasts it with the Missouri River valleys the expedition encountered—some of the richest farmland they'd ever seen. A period farm-sale listing lets him recover what "land" meant to a poor farm boy: not Jefferson's grand nation-building, but survival.
— Craig FehrmanOrdway quietly skipped Clark's single complaint about exhausted soldiers
During the grueling portage—sixteen to eighteen hour days hauling canoes—Clark wrote that the men were ‘疲沓懈怠’. Ordway, who normally copied Clark verbatim, conspicuously omitted this line: neither repeating it nor refuting it. Fehrman sees this as the defining signature of Ordway's role—absorbing all the emotional pressure between enlisted resentment and officers' authority.
— Craig FehrmanAt least four enlisted men kept parallel diaries, creating competing accounts
Jefferson's obsession with duplicate copies means we have at least four complete private journals beyond Lewis and Clark. The same portage looks entirely different in different accounts; even Lewis and Clark disagreed on terminology. Lewis preferred ‘野蛮人’ (savage), Clark favored ‘印第安人’ (Indian), and each sometimes deleted phrases they found objectionable.
— Craig FehrmanThe Lakota encounter dismissed as failure was likely their greatest diplomatic success
The Native American towns near Mandan held populations four times larger than St. Louis—denser than Washington D.C.—making this not empty frontier but a complex political world. Historians have called their Lakota encounter the expedition's worst diplomatic setback, but Fehrman found a rare 1807 diplomatic record telling another story. Viewed through Black Buffalo's lens, the captains weren't architects of failure but leverage in a power struggle Black Buffalo was already fighting.
— Craig FehrmanYork's bear-capture game was resistance to slavery, not innocent play
Earlier accounts treat York's popularity with Native peoples as the moment he ‘意识到自己值得平等对待’ (discovered his own worth). Fehrman argues York always knew his equality—what changed was having space where he didn't have to defer. His game of "the bear captured by Clark" wasn't innocent amusement but processing his own bondage. When Clark tried to stop him, York pushed back, because outside American society those rules no longer fully applied.
— Craig FehrmanCalling historical figures 'creatures of their time' obscures the actual choices they made
Fehrman and interviewer both reject the reflexive defense that ‘不该用今天标准评判古人’ (we shouldn't judge ancients by today's standards). Saying someone was a ‘时代中人’ (creature of their time) falsely assumes only one way to live in 1804—but people then, like now, held diverse views. Lewis never owned enslaved servants and hired a free man even in the White House; Clark wrote resenting York's claim to have made a ‘巨大贡献’ (tremendous contribution). The richness of sources lets Fehrman pin down precisely who Lewis and Clark chose to be, not dismiss them as inevitable products of their era.
— Craig FehrmanIn their own words · checked verbatim
Clark at one point, just as an aside, says that the men are, quote, dull and lolling about.
Craig Fehrman13:31
He was using the Americans every bit as much as they were using him.
Craig Fehrman24:51
It's like the old version is like Breaking Bad, but Gus isn't in it. Well, let's have Walter White and Gus. It's a better story when you have two powerful and intelligent people who are circling each other.
Craig Fehrman28:59
a favorite slave has to cringe a little lower.
Craig Fehrman34:17
It's a really curdled psychological dynamic that's it's just gross. It's tough to read about.
Craig Fehrman35:17
I don't agree with York about his immense services and that he has earned his freedom.
Craig Fehrman41:26
That made me think much worse of Clark than I used to, to be completely honest. … And I think slavery is a circumstance in which it is perfectly fine to judge them because you contrast Clark with Lewis.
Patrick Wyman41:26
Lewis didn't have a York. And it's not just on the expedition.
Craig Fehrman42:28
Figures
| Enlisted man's monthly pay | $5 | 8:22 |
| Portage segment length | approximately 20 miles | 13:31 |
| Known diarists among enlisted men | at least 4 | 17:36 |
| Native population near Mandan vs. St. Louis | 4 times St. Louis's population, exceeding Washington D.C. | 22:41 |
| Subjects with dedicated perspectives in book | 10 (5 Native American) | 22:41 |
| Number of people interviewed | over 100 | 20:39 |
| Expedition's total distance | approximately 8,000 miles | 43:30 |
| Time spent writing | 5 years | 43:30 |
Glossary
- Corps of Discovery
- Official name for the Lewis and Clark Expedition, composed of around thirty-plus members
- Portage
- Overland hauling of canoes and cargo around waterfalls and rapids to avoid impassable water
- NCO
- Non-commissioned officer; an enlisted man with supervisory rank, such as Sergeant Ordway
How to listen
Readers interested in American westward expansion, Native American politics, and the psychology of slavery—especially those who have read Undaunted Courage and want new evidence
You can skip the multiple Audible ads interspersed throughout; the rest of the interview is information-dense