The thing founders should learn isn't fundraising, it's how to say no
Beyond Yoga founder Michelle Wahler says you don't have to raise money or plan an exit — just build a business that's sustainable; her husband stopped her from making swimwear and forced her to perfect one pair of leggings first.
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The argument · tap a timestamp to hear it
You don't have to raise, and you don't have to plan an exit
Michelle says the advice entrepreneurs hear most often is ‘you have to raise’, and she thinks that's BS. Her logic: once you bring in investors, the exit becomes the company's focus and the company's trajectory changes with it. She suggests first figuring out what drives you and what you want the business to become, then building a sustainable business instead of staring at an exit. She adds: you don't have to be the next Anthropic — you probably won't be — but there's nothing wrong with a smaller business that supports you and gives you freedom in your life.
— Michelle WahlerScreen people first, then let them book a call
Carrie's adult study-abroad courses average $6,200. Lots of people express interest, open the emails, book calls, but never enroll — deadlines and discounts don't help. Michelle's suggestion is to add a few screening questions before ‘book a call’: Are you ready for a seven-day immersive experience? Are you willing to spend money on this once-in-a-lifetime investment in yourself? Are you a lifelong learner? If every answer is an enthusiastic yes, then we'll talk. That filters out the calls that were never going to convert.
— Michelle WahlerNo Eiffel Tower on the site, and she loses people
Carrie explains why the website doesn't show the Eiffel Tower: the travel market is crowded, and she wants to emphasize that this is an educational experience, a community of lifelong learners, not sightseeing. Michelle pushes back: the first two images on the site are a group of people looking at a map and a group of people in a classroom — images that could be anywhere. You should show people at a glance the thing that exists only here. Guy adds another layer: what actually stops people from hitting the enroll button is the anxiety of ‘I won't know a single person’, so sell the cohort — eight days with ten equally curious people — and put up testimonials like ‘I was nervous at first too, I almost didn't go.’
— Michelle WahlerGo to retirement communities and sign four or five at once
Michelle offers a channel idea: partner with high-end bespoke travel agencies, or with high-end independent living communities. She uses her own 79-year-old mother as an example — her mother lives in an independent living community surrounded by retired people, all looking for something exciting to do, but scared to go alone. Partner with communities like that and you might get four or five people signing up together at once, which is great top of funnel. Guy also suggests counterintuitively trying print media, like the New York Review of Books or the London Review of Books — spend a thousand dollars on a small ad, and the readership is exactly people over fifty with obvious intellectual curiosity.
— Michelle WahlerFix the process first, then win back old clients one at a time
Grace makes custom upholstered furniture. When she started in 2021 she was swamped by demand, promised timelines too fast, and left some interior designers embarrassed in front of their clients. Michelle says the relationships can be rebuilt, but only if you get operations in order first — if you fail to deliver a second time, the relationship is completely over. The method is to make a list and go one by one, starting with the smallest client, learning as you go and working upward, and not contacting the second until you've won back the first. Guy calls it a ‘second first impression’: don't open by asking someone to trust you again, let them see what you're making now, and ask for a small project first.
— Michelle WahlerBuild buffer into your quotes and deliver early
Michelle's concrete approach for Grace: first time your own process like an assembly line to learn your real capacity, then deliberately add buffer to the delivery expectations you give designers — enough buffer, but not so much that it scares them off. That way you work toward a target of two weeks early; if you really do finish two weeks early, call the designer and say ‘we can deliver early, or we can hold it for you’ — that's a huge plus. And if the budget was miscalculated and you really need a few extra days, the two-week buffer absorbs it. Either way you win.
— Michelle WahlerWhat the website lacks isn't design, it's story
Angel makes handmade soap with a stone hidden inside that corresponds to an emotion, paired with an affirmation. At markets everyone says it's great, but online it doesn't sell. Michelle says she opened the website and couldn't find a story — even the about page was empty when you clicked in — and that's the first thing to fix today. She also points out that every product is called a ‘self-care kit’; it should just say rose quartz, tiger eye, with a note next to it saying whether that stone corresponds to love or energy, instead of making people click into each one. And this is a perfect gifting scenario, so the copy can extend from ‘a moment for yourself’ to ‘for someone who deserves a moment more.’
— Michelle WahlerYou're selling a ritual, not soap
Guy uses the Calgon ad from his childhood as an analogy: a woman washing her hair in the bathtub, then the image cuts to the Caribbean. He says what Angel is really selling is that ritual — wherever you are, these five minutes of product can take you away — and that costs nothing, it just requires changing how you express it on the website and then using it to tell the story across every channel. Michelle adds the conversion formula: explain the ingredients and build trust, tell the story, show the product — all three have to hold at once for the sale to happen, because this is something you put on your skin.
— Guy RazIn their own words · checked verbatim
I don't think you need to raise money. And I feel like everybody tells you that you have to.
Michelle Wahler4:06
You don't have to be the next anthropic and you probably won't be, but there's nothing wrong with building a smaller sustainable business that gives you the freedom to live your life and support yourself.
Michelle Wahler5:07
I think a very important motto is under promise and over deliver.
Michelle Wahler21:47
But don't reach out to the second one until you've won the first one back.
Michelle Wahler22:53
I don't think it's a matter of, like, asking somebody to trust you. It's not like saying, hey, please trust me again. I think it's more about showing them what you do.
Guy Raz23:56
You're trying to tell a story on your website. You're trying to gain trust and you're trying to showcase product. And when all three of those things are working, that's when you convert a sale.
Michelle Wahler36:31
what you say no to is almost more important than what you say yes to. So don't forget to say no.
Michelle Wahler38:31
Figures
| Price Levi's paid to acquire Beyond Yoga | about $400 million | 1:01 |
| Average price of a single Elective Study Abroad course | $6,200 | 9:17 |
| Elective Study Abroad's course and student count this year | 5 courses, 26 students total | 6:12 |
| Sacred Paws Soap price range per kit | $35 to $38 | 32:11 |
| Sacred Paws Soap curing time for the handmade bars | 6 weeks | 31:10 |
Glossary
- cohort
- A group of people who take a course or travel together in the same session; here, the group of ten traveling together for eight days.
- second first impression
- Guy's phrase for re-approaching an old client not with an apology but by showing new work to rebuild the impression.
- under promise and over deliver
- The principle Michelle keeps repeating: leave room when you promise, exceed expectations when you deliver.
How to listen
Early founders agonizing over whether to raise, small business owners who live on craft and word of mouth, and anyone selling high-ticket experiential products who's stuck on conversion.
The opening, where Michelle talks about her life after leaving Beyond Yoga, is low on information and can be skipped.